I got here from a subscriber of mine who says she told you about me, saying we would be interested in one another. I see why. Not so many people think about the bigger picture and what could shift us from a world running on economic interests to one with humanitarian concerns -- just one way to describe the perilous place we find ourselves where we seem very ripe for a shift either to a more enlightened world or to a collapsed one.
I've got another tack to take. It is to adopt a new creation story, from the implications of what science told us thanks to Hubble. Our creation story is from when we thought the Milky Way was the only galaxy and now we know there are some two trillion. It's from when we thought we were in a fixed, dead universe, with Earth here for our use, but now know it's an evolving universe – i.e. it's alive -- and Earth is here for us, as the only species who can massively affect it, to caretake her. That's the essence of the Universe Story -- from Teilhard to Thomas Berry to Brian Swimme as my favorite contemporary storyteller. Humanity being ennobled behaves differently from what rugged individualist exploiters do. That cuts to the chase of what, if I ran the world, I'd teach it.
Thanks Suzanne, I think you would really enjoy getting into Gafni's work, esp. this book. Also, maybe you would be interested in our Earth Prayer event, which represents an embodiment of these big picture ideas? http://earthrising.one/earth-prayer
Do you have any round tables where people become deeply intimate with one another and delve into the issues of intimacy that you are so conversant with?
Even reading what you have to say is a piece of work, let alone getting into what the Gafni book delivers. Trying to pierce the heart of it, I noted this: “even at that level, there is a proto-desire to touch and form larger unions, a desire that is inherent in the structure of the Universe as a whole.” I wonder how familiar you are with Brian Swimme’s "Green Dragon" and its bookend, "Cosmogenesis"? That quote would be descriptive of the evolutionary pattern he describes, which keep coming to mind as the big container for all the complex theorizing I was reading about.
And a left field comment came to mind about how important est and its offshoots, that aren’t so ubiquitous today, were in our development, where people tuned into some basics that you couldn’t get on Zoom. How do people get such an experience today?
About the Earth Prayer, right before Covid I did a lot of work with David Lorimer, whom I hope you know, on a project that never happened -- another story -- to create an iteration of Britain's Minute of Silence, in WW II. When Big Ben sounded at 6 pm there was widespread participation in a focus on Germany not invading, and there’s some belief (Wikipedia says so) that it kept the Germans out. Our project would have been a minute for millions at the same time in every time zone to focus on kindness (being love in action). If it were noted as having an effect, we could use that power of prayer as a way to achieve other ends. My reflection for you is that it’s in the category that interests me (rather uniquely that’s strange but true) of what we-the-people could do, where we are not using our smarts, that we’d have to be organized for but can do via the internet, to help the world. I do wonder how successful you will be getting significant commitments from each of us in our own silos.
Thank you so much, David. I am happy you agreed to a conversation about this, because the ideas I expressed and my stand on them are troubling to me as well. I appreciate your thoughtfulness about the principles involved and your words help me relax my automatic response, a response fed from from being a woman, from valuing moral and ethical principles, and my devotion to social change (in this case-- for me -- meaning not hiding behind fear). I especially appreciate the idea of a line between relating to someone (in this case, Marc) "as a thinker" and not a "personal teacher". That can make sense to me. Thank you.
Excellent. Besides Scharmer do you know the work of Bernard Lievegoed as relates to the fourth and or Witzenmann's fourfold basic structure. All three were inspired by Rudolf Steiner's work with threefold realities and the 4th dimension. I love this book and especially Zak's work. A reading of Steiner's epistemology and the role freedom plays as formative and participatory can really bolster these fellas efforts I look forward to reading your Scharmer piece and what you intimate to be on the horizon.
Hi David, I very much enjoyed your writing “First Principles and First Values”. As I was interested in the reasoning for a pseudonym, I realized that one of the primary authors is Marc Gafni. Many years ago I came across his ideas which were very compatible with my own intuitive ideas and teachings. So I looked into his work and background. The information I found was so disturbing that I wrote to his organization to ask if he had apologized or made any statements about his own culpability regarding the numerous accounts of sexual misconduct. I was told everything I needed to know was on his site (which did not hold any moral and ethical weight for my own ability to understand his motivations).
In any case, I appreciate the viewpoints you are offering; and I can’t seem to wrap my head around the author’s backstory without seeing something other than discrediting his accusers. It sounds too much like our former president. Behavior is very important, and I sense these ideas, although important, are tainted with entitlement and arrogance. This needs to be addressed, and if he has taken responsibility, I would appreciate knowing about that. I am very able to forgive should he ask.
Thanks for reading my work Patricia. I don’t find these ideas arrogant or entitled — they seem to me clean and cogent, which is why I wanted to write about them.
I agree the ideas are important; however, are we not to take a look at the source of the ideas and consider the integrity of the source? Isn’t the teacher herself or himself responsible to walk the moral and ethical path?
Of course I agree in principle Patricia and understand your concerns. Here's the thing. I myself was persuaded a number of years ago to sign a petition opposing Marc's work in the world based on these accusations. I later felt that it was wrong of me to do so. I had never even met Marc. As a friend of mine who knew Marc pointed out to me, I had relied solely on second hand evidence and opinions to add my name to that list. I came to realize that's not an appropriate basis for taking a public stand against someone and their work. I ended up contacting Marc and apologizing to him.
I also think the relevance of these issues depends on the context of the relationship we are trying to have with the person in question. If we were relating to Marc Gafni as a personal teacher, then these issues would be of paramount importance. But in relating to Marc as a thinker, they seem more peripheral to me. I don't know at the end of the day what's true about those claims but I don't see them as especially relevant in terms of assessing the validity and importance of his ideas. To me his ideas stand on their own and are profoundly important. Something like the thesis of this book needs to move into the center of culture within a relatively short time-frame or we will all be in deep trouble. In that context, at least for myself, I questioned the morality of taking actions that would stop that message from reaching more people, on the basis of certain claims of which I had no first-hand knowledge.
Pardon me for entering this interaction. David this is an excellent answer and I would add that what ever one believes about Gafni (he is not my cup of tea) one could never impugn the character of Stein and the integrity of his work or the rigor and humility with which he goes about it.
I also had to push past some of the words and the different style of interaction which is strange for me as a South African (might have my own bias) but the meaning inherent in this book is brilliant
fascinating. at first glance it rubs me the wrong way to fail to acknowledge that many premodern traditions encapsulated much of this form of thinking. but i am quite sure that wa not your or the authors intents
I understand, but in fact the intent of this work is to honor what is true and eternal about the premodern traditions while answering the critiques that have been made by modern and postmodern thinkers of where they got it wrong, eg, those aspects of premodern thought that were debunked by science or distorted by ethnocentric biases. In this way, that ancient wisdom can be preserved and extended into contemporary culture but in alignment with the valid aspects of scientific and postmodern thought.
yes thanks: i see that. I worry that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is always a concern. I remember my Zen Roshi talking to us of the need to modernize very slowly and cautiously.
I got here from a subscriber of mine who says she told you about me, saying we would be interested in one another. I see why. Not so many people think about the bigger picture and what could shift us from a world running on economic interests to one with humanitarian concerns -- just one way to describe the perilous place we find ourselves where we seem very ripe for a shift either to a more enlightened world or to a collapsed one.
I've got another tack to take. It is to adopt a new creation story, from the implications of what science told us thanks to Hubble. Our creation story is from when we thought the Milky Way was the only galaxy and now we know there are some two trillion. It's from when we thought we were in a fixed, dead universe, with Earth here for our use, but now know it's an evolving universe – i.e. it's alive -- and Earth is here for us, as the only species who can massively affect it, to caretake her. That's the essence of the Universe Story -- from Teilhard to Thomas Berry to Brian Swimme as my favorite contemporary storyteller. Humanity being ennobled behaves differently from what rugged individualist exploiters do. That cuts to the chase of what, if I ran the world, I'd teach it.
My latest Substack is what got passed to you: https://open.substack.com/pub/suzannetaylor/p/the-urgency-of-now. This is the prior post that has my call for big picture thinkers to think with about a conversation to save the world: https://suzannetaylor.substack.com/p/looking-for-a-committee-to-think.
Thanks Suzanne, I think you would really enjoy getting into Gafni's work, esp. this book. Also, maybe you would be interested in our Earth Prayer event, which represents an embodiment of these big picture ideas? http://earthrising.one/earth-prayer
Do you have any round tables where people become deeply intimate with one another and delve into the issues of intimacy that you are so conversant with?
Even reading what you have to say is a piece of work, let alone getting into what the Gafni book delivers. Trying to pierce the heart of it, I noted this: “even at that level, there is a proto-desire to touch and form larger unions, a desire that is inherent in the structure of the Universe as a whole.” I wonder how familiar you are with Brian Swimme’s "Green Dragon" and its bookend, "Cosmogenesis"? That quote would be descriptive of the evolutionary pattern he describes, which keep coming to mind as the big container for all the complex theorizing I was reading about.
And a left field comment came to mind about how important est and its offshoots, that aren’t so ubiquitous today, were in our development, where people tuned into some basics that you couldn’t get on Zoom. How do people get such an experience today?
About the Earth Prayer, right before Covid I did a lot of work with David Lorimer, whom I hope you know, on a project that never happened -- another story -- to create an iteration of Britain's Minute of Silence, in WW II. When Big Ben sounded at 6 pm there was widespread participation in a focus on Germany not invading, and there’s some belief (Wikipedia says so) that it kept the Germans out. Our project would have been a minute for millions at the same time in every time zone to focus on kindness (being love in action). If it were noted as having an effect, we could use that power of prayer as a way to achieve other ends. My reflection for you is that it’s in the category that interests me (rather uniquely that’s strange but true) of what we-the-people could do, where we are not using our smarts, that we’d have to be organized for but can do via the internet, to help the world. I do wonder how successful you will be getting significant commitments from each of us in our own silos.
Here’s a summary of my we-the-people ideas as of almost a year ago, that I’d throw out now for this “committee” I’m looking for: “What's on A ROADMAP TO THE FUTURE? What we-the-people can do” https://suzannetaylor.substack.com/p/whats-on-a-roadmap-to-the-future.
So many thoughts. So little time…
Thank you so much, David. I am happy you agreed to a conversation about this, because the ideas I expressed and my stand on them are troubling to me as well. I appreciate your thoughtfulness about the principles involved and your words help me relax my automatic response, a response fed from from being a woman, from valuing moral and ethical principles, and my devotion to social change (in this case-- for me -- meaning not hiding behind fear). I especially appreciate the idea of a line between relating to someone (in this case, Marc) "as a thinker" and not a "personal teacher". That can make sense to me. Thank you.
Thanks so much for engaging so sincerely Patricia, I really appreciate our back and forth on this and where we ended up.
Excellent. Besides Scharmer do you know the work of Bernard Lievegoed as relates to the fourth and or Witzenmann's fourfold basic structure. All three were inspired by Rudolf Steiner's work with threefold realities and the 4th dimension. I love this book and especially Zak's work. A reading of Steiner's epistemology and the role freedom plays as formative and participatory can really bolster these fellas efforts I look forward to reading your Scharmer piece and what you intimate to be on the horizon.
Will check them out, thanks!
Excellent book
Hi David, I very much enjoyed your writing “First Principles and First Values”. As I was interested in the reasoning for a pseudonym, I realized that one of the primary authors is Marc Gafni. Many years ago I came across his ideas which were very compatible with my own intuitive ideas and teachings. So I looked into his work and background. The information I found was so disturbing that I wrote to his organization to ask if he had apologized or made any statements about his own culpability regarding the numerous accounts of sexual misconduct. I was told everything I needed to know was on his site (which did not hold any moral and ethical weight for my own ability to understand his motivations).
In any case, I appreciate the viewpoints you are offering; and I can’t seem to wrap my head around the author’s backstory without seeing something other than discrediting his accusers. It sounds too much like our former president. Behavior is very important, and I sense these ideas, although important, are tainted with entitlement and arrogance. This needs to be addressed, and if he has taken responsibility, I would appreciate knowing about that. I am very able to forgive should he ask.
Many fond regards to you and your work!
Patricia VanBuskirk
Sent from my iPhone
Thanks for reading my work Patricia. I don’t find these ideas arrogant or entitled — they seem to me clean and cogent, which is why I wanted to write about them.
I agree the ideas are important; however, are we not to take a look at the source of the ideas and consider the integrity of the source? Isn’t the teacher herself or himself responsible to walk the moral and ethical path?
Of course I agree in principle Patricia and understand your concerns. Here's the thing. I myself was persuaded a number of years ago to sign a petition opposing Marc's work in the world based on these accusations. I later felt that it was wrong of me to do so. I had never even met Marc. As a friend of mine who knew Marc pointed out to me, I had relied solely on second hand evidence and opinions to add my name to that list. I came to realize that's not an appropriate basis for taking a public stand against someone and their work. I ended up contacting Marc and apologizing to him.
I also think the relevance of these issues depends on the context of the relationship we are trying to have with the person in question. If we were relating to Marc Gafni as a personal teacher, then these issues would be of paramount importance. But in relating to Marc as a thinker, they seem more peripheral to me. I don't know at the end of the day what's true about those claims but I don't see them as especially relevant in terms of assessing the validity and importance of his ideas. To me his ideas stand on their own and are profoundly important. Something like the thesis of this book needs to move into the center of culture within a relatively short time-frame or we will all be in deep trouble. In that context, at least for myself, I questioned the morality of taking actions that would stop that message from reaching more people, on the basis of certain claims of which I had no first-hand knowledge.
Pardon me for entering this interaction. David this is an excellent answer and I would add that what ever one believes about Gafni (he is not my cup of tea) one could never impugn the character of Stein and the integrity of his work or the rigor and humility with which he goes about it.
I also had to push past some of the words and the different style of interaction which is strange for me as a South African (might have my own bias) but the meaning inherent in this book is brilliant
fascinating. at first glance it rubs me the wrong way to fail to acknowledge that many premodern traditions encapsulated much of this form of thinking. but i am quite sure that wa not your or the authors intents
I understand, but in fact the intent of this work is to honor what is true and eternal about the premodern traditions while answering the critiques that have been made by modern and postmodern thinkers of where they got it wrong, eg, those aspects of premodern thought that were debunked by science or distorted by ethnocentric biases. In this way, that ancient wisdom can be preserved and extended into contemporary culture but in alignment with the valid aspects of scientific and postmodern thought.
yes thanks: i see that. I worry that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is always a concern. I remember my Zen Roshi talking to us of the need to modernize very slowly and cautiously.