As I mentioned in my comment in your promised following article, Scharmer's work on the 4th person is deeply rooted in Steiner's epistemology. What I did not mention is that it is also deeply rooted in the latter's Christology. The alchemical wedding of these two is found in what Steiner refers to as the etheric as a fourth dimension. I love that you frame this as emergent. I would also say it is existent and is presence that can be individualized such that we inversely are participants in this dimension beyond space, time, and directionality and embodied and ensouled as transformed desire. Perhaps that is what one can say: the participation in the etheric is what is emergent and the etheric is thus eternal and evolving in simultaneity? I love where you are going.
I didn’t know that connection between Scharmer’s work and Steiner, interesting! I also like what you wrote “ the etheric is thus eternal and evolving in simultaneity” — this is the great paradox I think we are starting to wake up to, like Gafni’s The Tao is both eternal and evolving. I tend to emphasize its emergent aspect a bit more because that’s the part that most captures my attention in the work that I do with group fields, but the eternal ground and mystery is always implicit and ever present.
Ken Wilber long ago pointed out that the challenge of this work is in the locus of self-identity. While I may have experience of the group field, do I identify as "this person having the experience," or do I identify as the field itself that gives rise to identity (and experience)? "Fourth person knowing" implies identity as the "fourth person"; otherwise it is what Wilber calls a peak experience. Nothing is wrong with any of this, of course, but I notice a tendency among many experimenting in this spiritual laboratory to overlook the role of identity, which births perspective. Ramana Maharshi's instruction to continuously ask "Who am I?" seems apposite here.
Fair comment Marty. I wonder though if it depends on what goal we have in mind in relation to this kind of group field exploration. If the goal is individual development and realization, then I think these kinds of concerns are relevant. But if the goal is primarily to explore how these fields can be used to seed systemic or cultural change, I think it changes the equation somewhat, eg., what does it matter if it is 'merely' a peak experience if that experience catalyzes a positive systemic shift? Either way, I think the dialectic between individual sovereignty/identity and group consciousness is crucial and these are good questions.
I've explored this matter at length in my own career and in the book I am putting the finishing touches on, called Creating Our World. Its basic thesis is that consciousness is always evolving, that humans are--at least in this corner of the Kosmos--the vehicle for consciousness to become aware of itself, and that the field (assuming we mean the same thing by the word), the locus of consciousness-as-essence, gives rise to all particularities.
As we humans evolve we seem to be pushing toward consciousness of the field, but with the exception of mystics the world over we do not seem developed enough as a species yet to identify with/as the field. (I use "identity" here as Wilber uses it: the answer to the question "who am I?") Are we actually heading there? Dunno, but I heartily agree that all attempts to "go there" contribute to the potential. After all, each of us is a fractal of the field itself.
So my original comment was to suggest that exploration of "fourth person" consciousness will be enhanced by the explorer's recognition of his/her own perspective in embarking upon the journey. And I am willing to be wrong about that.
Thanks Marty. Your work sounds great. My sense is that one of the real advantages of these group fields is that they serve as a kind of intermediary between individuals and the universal field/source. Since they are comprised of the essence of each person in the group, they are more tangible and relatable than the field-at-large. So they seem to provide an easier access point.
I do agree with you that exploration of 'fourth person consciousness' could be enhanced by the practitioners' awareness of their own perspective. There is really a lot of potential still to explore here.
Dear David - thank you for this beautiful message! I loved hearing about your personal journey and how you're honing in on your unique path. AND, I LOVED the naming and inquiry into "4th Person Knowing". I share your conviction this is a critical meta-skill for our collective evolution/ survival. Grateful that you took the time to share your thoughts, feelings, research.
Thanks David for your continued work with groups, astrology and this important work with the power of group empathy and shared intuition. Very much part of my life and exploratory work with groups too. So important at this moment with planetary placements enhancing the 'sowing of seeds'; seeds given us at birth awaiting this moment to be sown when Pluto has revolved the Earth and together with Uranus is bringing seeds on the winds into Aquarius. Love your work.
I don't know if you saw the last youtube of Formscapes, but it's attuned to this topic too. Love Peter (check it out)
Thanks so much for sharing about coherent group fields and Otto Scharmer's "fourth-person knowing." This helps as I’ve been attempting to get a better sense of the collective space and interconnections.
Hi David: I love your work. I read Subtle Activism and see many correspondences with my book Mystical Activism and my experience of mystical consciousness deeply fleshed out in my mystical poetry. I confess no knowledge of astrology but your language feels so familiar to my soul as if we are in the same family pod. Anyway, I just wanted to say hi and how much I appreciate your work. Best wishes, John
As I mentioned in my comment in your promised following article, Scharmer's work on the 4th person is deeply rooted in Steiner's epistemology. What I did not mention is that it is also deeply rooted in the latter's Christology. The alchemical wedding of these two is found in what Steiner refers to as the etheric as a fourth dimension. I love that you frame this as emergent. I would also say it is existent and is presence that can be individualized such that we inversely are participants in this dimension beyond space, time, and directionality and embodied and ensouled as transformed desire. Perhaps that is what one can say: the participation in the etheric is what is emergent and the etheric is thus eternal and evolving in simultaneity? I love where you are going.
I didn’t know that connection between Scharmer’s work and Steiner, interesting! I also like what you wrote “ the etheric is thus eternal and evolving in simultaneity” — this is the great paradox I think we are starting to wake up to, like Gafni’s The Tao is both eternal and evolving. I tend to emphasize its emergent aspect a bit more because that’s the part that most captures my attention in the work that I do with group fields, but the eternal ground and mystery is always implicit and ever present.
Ken Wilber long ago pointed out that the challenge of this work is in the locus of self-identity. While I may have experience of the group field, do I identify as "this person having the experience," or do I identify as the field itself that gives rise to identity (and experience)? "Fourth person knowing" implies identity as the "fourth person"; otherwise it is what Wilber calls a peak experience. Nothing is wrong with any of this, of course, but I notice a tendency among many experimenting in this spiritual laboratory to overlook the role of identity, which births perspective. Ramana Maharshi's instruction to continuously ask "Who am I?" seems apposite here.
Fair comment Marty. I wonder though if it depends on what goal we have in mind in relation to this kind of group field exploration. If the goal is individual development and realization, then I think these kinds of concerns are relevant. But if the goal is primarily to explore how these fields can be used to seed systemic or cultural change, I think it changes the equation somewhat, eg., what does it matter if it is 'merely' a peak experience if that experience catalyzes a positive systemic shift? Either way, I think the dialectic between individual sovereignty/identity and group consciousness is crucial and these are good questions.
Thanks for engaging, David.
I've explored this matter at length in my own career and in the book I am putting the finishing touches on, called Creating Our World. Its basic thesis is that consciousness is always evolving, that humans are--at least in this corner of the Kosmos--the vehicle for consciousness to become aware of itself, and that the field (assuming we mean the same thing by the word), the locus of consciousness-as-essence, gives rise to all particularities.
As we humans evolve we seem to be pushing toward consciousness of the field, but with the exception of mystics the world over we do not seem developed enough as a species yet to identify with/as the field. (I use "identity" here as Wilber uses it: the answer to the question "who am I?") Are we actually heading there? Dunno, but I heartily agree that all attempts to "go there" contribute to the potential. After all, each of us is a fractal of the field itself.
So my original comment was to suggest that exploration of "fourth person" consciousness will be enhanced by the explorer's recognition of his/her own perspective in embarking upon the journey. And I am willing to be wrong about that.
Cheers!
Thanks Marty. Your work sounds great. My sense is that one of the real advantages of these group fields is that they serve as a kind of intermediary between individuals and the universal field/source. Since they are comprised of the essence of each person in the group, they are more tangible and relatable than the field-at-large. So they seem to provide an easier access point.
I do agree with you that exploration of 'fourth person consciousness' could be enhanced by the practitioners' awareness of their own perspective. There is really a lot of potential still to explore here.
I'd say, Amen!
Dear David - thank you for this beautiful message! I loved hearing about your personal journey and how you're honing in on your unique path. AND, I LOVED the naming and inquiry into "4th Person Knowing". I share your conviction this is a critical meta-skill for our collective evolution/ survival. Grateful that you took the time to share your thoughts, feelings, research.
appreciate that Margit!
Thanks David for your continued work with groups, astrology and this important work with the power of group empathy and shared intuition. Very much part of my life and exploratory work with groups too. So important at this moment with planetary placements enhancing the 'sowing of seeds'; seeds given us at birth awaiting this moment to be sown when Pluto has revolved the Earth and together with Uranus is bringing seeds on the winds into Aquarius. Love your work.
I don't know if you saw the last youtube of Formscapes, but it's attuned to this topic too. Love Peter (check it out)
https://youtu.be/P2U-y_gI8Zc?si=brG2o0NNdk3-CdYl
Thanks Pete nice to hear from you!
Thanks so much for sharing about coherent group fields and Otto Scharmer's "fourth-person knowing." This helps as I’ve been attempting to get a better sense of the collective space and interconnections.
Looking forward to your next piece.
Thanks Deborah!
Hi David: I love your work. I read Subtle Activism and see many correspondences with my book Mystical Activism and my experience of mystical consciousness deeply fleshed out in my mystical poetry. I confess no knowledge of astrology but your language feels so familiar to my soul as if we are in the same family pod. Anyway, I just wanted to say hi and how much I appreciate your work. Best wishes, John
www.johnrobinson.org
Thanks John! Love your stuff too...